Guests - Ava Chen, Hannah Puder
Watch China Watch on YouTube
France as a Warning About What Happens When Institutions Erode
Kathleen Winn opened China Watch Wednesday with a warning that the unrest unfolding in France should not be dismissed as somebody else’s problem.
She described what she sees as organized chaos rather than ordinary political protest: institutions weakened over time, law enforcement diminished, public disorder normalized and political movements willing to exploit the instability. Winn argued that Americans should study what is happening abroad because the pressures on Western societies do not stop at national borders.
“This is not freedom of speech,” Winn said. “This is not protesting. These are organized riots to create chaos, to create disruption, to overtake a country.”
Ava Chen of the New Federal State of China agreed with Winn’s broader premise that chaos rarely benefits nobody. When governments and societies begin destabilizing, Chen said, the important question is who gains power or money from the disruption.
“If something [is] coming, you’re always thinking, who is actually gaining something from this?” Chen said.
Chen connected that instability to what she views as a broader global movement rooted in communist ideology and international institutions. Winn raised the idea of a “Red-Green Alliance”—an alignment between radical leftist movements and Islamist factions that may disagree profoundly with one another but can temporarily cooperate against common enemies.
“The enemy of my enemy is my friend,” Winn said.
Both women argued that Americans should resist the temptation to assume similar pressures cannot develop here. Winn pointed to debates over law enforcement, prisons, firearms and immigration as evidence that many of the same institutional arguments are already taking place in the United States.
Her point was not that France and America are identical. It was that institutional decline is easier to recognize when watching another country experience it.
“The systems, the institutions in France are failing right now,” Winn said. “And they’ve been eroded for a long period of time.”
Ava Chen: Xi Jinping’s Health May Be Worse Than Beijing Wants the World to Know
Chen then turned China Watch Wednesday toward Xi Jinping and information she said her organization had recently received regarding his health.
Chen stressed that some elements surrounding Xi’s recent U.S. visit had already been publicly reported. She pointed to a schedule that included an extended break during the day and the absence of a working lunch during what otherwise would have been an important diplomatic visit.
Her organization’s sources, she said, provided additional context.
According to Chen, Xi now requires substantial rest around midday and may be unable to sustain the kind of all-day schedule normally expected of a head of state.
“His health is really, really not good,” Chen said.
She also claimed Xi requires cardiac stimulants delivered either by injection or inhalation during breaks in his public schedule.
That information came from sources Chen described as insider intelligence and was presented as her organization’s reporting rather than independently established fact.
Chen said the physical limitations could explain why Xi reportedly needed private space available during his American visit.
She also pointed to his movements during public appearances.
Winn recalled images of Xi and his wife climbing stairs together and initially interpreted the handholding as marital affection. Chen suggested another explanation: Xi may have needed physical support.
“She’s wanting to make sure he doesn’t fall down,” Winn said after considering Chen’s account.
Makeup, Missed Events and a Smaller Delegation
Chen said the health concerns extend beyond the United States visit.
She claimed Xi uses makeup before significant public appearances to conceal signs that he looks unwell.
“He doesn’t want to present a sickly appearance in a very major kind of diplomatic performance,” Chen said.
She also connected his condition to skipped events during international travel, including a dinner associated with a recent BRICS gathering in India.
Chen said Xi’s original plans for his U.S. visit allegedly contemplated an enormous accompanying delegation that could have included more than a thousand people, including business figures. She said those plans were dramatically reduced because Xi could no longer tolerate such a demanding schedule.
For Winn, the contrast with President Donald Trump was striking.
Whatever voters think of Trump politically, she said, he continues to maintain an aggressive public schedule despite being older than Xi.
That distinction matters because presidential stamina is not merely a personal issue when dealing with China.
If Xi’s position becomes unstable, America could find itself confronting a leadership transition inside the world’s most powerful communist state.
“If Xi Jinping goes down, you want Trump at full capacity in the world,” Winn said.
Why Chen Says Xi Jinping Is the Last Person Anyone Should Want to Be
Chen used Xi’s declining health to make a larger argument about the nature of communist power.
She compared Xi to an aging lion.
A strong lion dominates its rivals while it retains strength. Once it weakens, younger challengers begin testing it. Even retreat may not guarantee safety because weakness itself attracts enemies.
Chen said that is essentially how Communist Party politics functions.
“If you read historical books on contemporary China, [it is] never-ending political purge,” she said.
CCP leaders, in Chen’s telling, operate according to a law-of-the-jungle mentality in which power is the only meaningful protection. Once the leader appears weak, internal enemies who have been waiting for an opportunity begin moving.
That makes information about a dictator’s health unusually sensitive.
“You don’t want people to know that you’re weak,” Chen said.
For Xi, the problem is especially severe because years of purges have created enemies across the party.
Winn noted that every official removed, humiliated or imprisoned potentially leaves behind relatives, allies and institutional networks that may be waiting for their opportunity.
“So somebody is already maybe planning a move,” Winn said.
Chen agreed that pressure on Xi could come from both inside and outside the Communist Party.
The AI Race Creates Another Threat Xi Cannot Fully Control
Artificial intelligence has become another source of vulnerability for Xi, according to Chen.
She discussed the accelerating competition between the United States and China over artificial intelligence and what American officials increasingly describe as the next generation of “super intelligence.”
Chen welcomed American efforts to organize national-security policy around advanced AI.
Her argument was that the United States cannot simply stop developing the technology because China will not stop.
But Beijing faces a structural problem of its own.
Xi needs advanced artificial intelligence.
He also cannot completely trust the people building it.
Chen described the dilemma as a product of authoritarian government.
In a truly private market, competing companies develop technology independently. In China, she argued, supposedly private corporations remain entangled with the state, the military and different political factions.
That creates a dangerous question for Xi: who gets control of the most powerful technology ever developed?
Alibaba, Jack Ma and Xi’s Fear of Rival Power Centers
Chen used Alibaba and Jack Ma as examples.
She argued that major Chinese technology firms should not be understood in the same way Americans understand genuinely independent private companies.
According to Chen, Alibaba has long been connected to political and military intelligence interests inside China.
She cited comments attributed to Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent suggesting that Xi could fear what figures connected to Alibaba might eventually do with artificial intelligence.
Chen’s concern goes beyond corporate competition.
Advanced AI could theoretically be used to disrupt communications, transportation, infrastructure or other systems upon which the regime depends.
“All you have to do is get AI to hack something, control the infrastructure or communication or transportation,” Chen said of the potential vulnerability.
Her argument was that the same technology China hopes to use for surveillance and control could become a weapon inside the CCP’s own factional wars.
The dictator wants the tool.
He simply cannot be certain who will control it tomorrow.
Huawei and Chen’s Claim That Ren Zhengfei’s Family Is Under Restrictive Control
Chen then shared what she described as new intelligence regarding Huawei founder Ren Zhengfei.
She said previous information suggested tensions over foreign assets and the control of Huawei-related technological infrastructure, including cloud computing, communications and artificial intelligence.
Her latest information, she said, was that Ren and members of his family had been placed under restrictive control in China and were being held together at a hotel.
That claim came from Chen’s sources and was not independently verified during the discussion.
Chen used it to reinforce her larger point.
Xi cannot simply trust a state-connected technology company because the people inside that organization may also belong to rival political factions.
“He has nobody to trust,” Chen said.
That, in her view, is one of the fundamental weaknesses of communist systems.
Everyone is dependent on political power.
Everyone is also potentially threatened by whoever controls it.
The resulting cycle becomes one of suspicion, purge and counter-purge.
A Weakened Dictator Can Become More Dangerous
Winn cautioned against assuming that Xi’s weakness automatically makes the free world safer.
Chen agreed.
A desperate leader may become more dangerous precisely because he believes he has fewer options.
“You don’t rule out a desperate person,” Chen said. “Sometimes they would do crazy things.”
That possibility makes continued scrutiny of China essential.
Chen said the New Federal State of China will continue tracking developments inside the CCP even if Xi appears politically or physically weakened.
The goal should not be complacency.
It should be understanding the vulnerabilities without underestimating what an authoritarian leader might do to preserve power.
DOJ Denaturalization Cases and the Difference Between Forty Defendants and Two Chinese Nationals
Winn then raised a Justice Department initiative involving denaturalization cases.
She initially described the action as targeting 40 Chinese citizens.
Chen immediately checked the information and corrected the record during the conversation.
The 40 cases involved individuals from approximately 22 countries, Chen said, not 40 people from China.
Only two were Chinese nationals.
That distinction mattered.
The broader group faced allegations involving a range of serious crimes, while the Chinese cases discussed included one involving the theft of U.S. Navy information and another involving alleged monitoring of dissidents on American soil on behalf of the CCP.
Chen nevertheless viewed the initiative as a positive development.
She argued that citizenship obtained through fraud should not shield people who then commit serious crimes or conduct espionage for foreign governments.
Winn framed the issue as one of restoring value to American citizenship.
“We have to start to value our citizenship,” Winn said.
Chen Says Many More CCP-Linked Operatives Remain Untouched
While welcoming the denaturalization actions, Chen said the effort barely begins to address the scale of Chinese influence she believes exists inside the United States.
“I can give you a list,” she said.
Chen claimed her organization knows of numerous influential people who have acted on behalf of Chinese Communist Party interests yet remain untouched by American authorities.
Some, she said, are permanent residents.
Others are citizens.
Still others occupy powerful positions in American institutions.
Her frustration is that the process of exposing and prosecuting foreign influence moves slowly.
Chen argued that Americans need a broader strategy for identifying people who use their position in the United States to advance CCP repression or espionage.
“There’s a long way to go,” she said.
Miles Guo Remains Central to Chen’s View of CCP Influence in America
The conversation again turned to Miles Guo, the Chinese dissident and New Federal State of China founder whose legal case Chen and Winn have discussed repeatedly.
Chen maintained that Guo is innocent and said his continued imprisonment demonstrates the reach of the networks her organization has spent years trying to expose.
Winn agreed with Chen’s characterization and expressed hope that his case will eventually be reversed.
Those are the positions of Winn and Chen; the conversation did not independently litigate or establish the facts of Guo’s criminal case.
For Chen, however, the issue is inseparable from her larger warning about CCP influence.
She believes the people who have attacked Guo politically and legally provide a roadmap for understanding how deeply Chinese interests have penetrated Western institutions.
“There’s lots of work you need to do for America,” Chen said.
The Russia “Disease X” Report Raises New Questions
Chen closed her segment by raising a developing report involving a Russian biological or chemical research facility near the Chinese border.
She referenced reporting discussed by commentator Natalie Winters involving an alleged outbreak associated with a laboratory and something described as “Disease X.”
Chen and Winn acknowledged that many details remained uncertain.
They did not know whether reported claims about the pathogen, its severity or available treatments were accurate.
What concerned them was Russia’s reported denial that any emergency had occurred.
“The fact that Russia’s downplaying it makes me concerned,” Winn said.
Chen also emphasized the geographic proximity to China and said the subject warranted continued attention.
Rather than drawing a final conclusion, they agreed to revisit it as additional information became available.
The exchange fit the broader theme of China Watch Wednesday: authoritarian governments should not receive automatic trust when they control information about public-health or national-security incidents.
Hannah Puder: Remembering October 7 Through the Story of One Israeli Hero
The second hour turned from China to Israel on the third anniversary of the October 7, 2023 Hamas attack.
Winn noted that approximately 1,200 people were killed and 251 people were taken hostage.
Her guest was filmmaker Hannah Puder, producer and director of Operation Arnon: A Story of Hope and Sacrifice.
The short documentary tells the story of the June 8, 2024 Israeli hostage rescue that brought four captives home and cost Chief Inspector Arnon Zamora his life.
Puder said she became interested in the story after watching the hostage crisis unfold following October 7.
Some captives were soldiers.
Others were mothers, fathers, children and even babies.
For Israel, she said, securing their release became a national imperative.
Negotiations produced only limited results.
That left a military rescue as one of the few remaining options.
“What other options did they have to release those hostages, if not negotiations?” Puder asked.
Why a Hostage Rescue in Gaza Was So Difficult
Puder explained that the tactical environment made a rescue extraordinarily dangerous.
Many hostages were held in narrow underground tunnels where sending special operators directly into the confined spaces could have led to the deaths of the very people they were trying to save.
The situation changed when intelligence indicated that several hostages had been moved above ground.
That created an opportunity.
Puder said Israeli forces spent months developing intelligence and preparing the operation, with American intelligence providing assistance on the front end.
When conditions aligned, Israeli special forces launched the rescue.
Four hostages were recovered.
Arnon Zamora was fatally wounded.
From “Seeds of Summer” to Operation Arnon
The mission originally carried a different operational name: “Seeds of Summer.”
After Zamora was killed, Israel renamed it Operation Arnon in his honor.
Winn called that a fitting tribute to a man who had died while leading the force that liberated fellow citizens.
“He put down [his] life to save others,” Winn said.
Puder said Zamora’s death was not simply the loss of an anonymous operator.
He was already known in Israel for his actions on October 7.
According to Puder, while Israeli forces were still mobilizing during the initial Hamas attack, Zamora and members of his unit moved toward a nearby kibbutz and fought to protect residents before the full military response had been organized.
Puder described him as a man who had already earned a reputation for courage.
“He wasn’t just another soldier,” she said. “People knew who he was.”
Puder Wanted the Film to Restore What She Believed the Media Had Missed
Puder said she initially could not understand why the hostage rescue did not receive more extensive attention.
For months, the world had demanded the release of the captives.
Then Israeli forces successfully rescued four of them in an extraordinarily complex operation.
Yet Puder felt the story of the men who actually carried out the mission quickly became buried beneath competing political narratives.
She was particularly disturbed by coverage she believed diminished or distorted the actions of the Israeli operators.
“I was appalled,” Puder said.
Living in a military community in Virginia and knowing people connected to special operations, she understood something of the training and risk involved in missions of that type.
She decided Zamora deserved a more permanent legacy.
“I wanted to give Arnon Zamora a legacy, something that would honor the truth of what happened and show that he really was a hero,” she said.
Inside the Israeli Units That Carried Out the Rescue
Puder traveled to Israel while the war was still underway to conduct the interviews.
Her film includes Israeli officers who were directly involved in the mission, including personnel from units that supported the rescue and one Yamam operator who was a friend and teammate of Zamora.
That access became one of the defining features of the project.
Rather than reconstructing the story entirely through commentators, Puder wanted people who were physically there to explain what happened.
“You just get the perspective of the people on the ground,” she said.
She also interviewed Zamora’s mother and father.
That gives the film another layer.
The soldiers knew the operator.
His parents knew the son.
The Scale of Operation Arnon
Puder emphasized that the rescue required far more than the few operators who ultimately entered the buildings.
The broader mission included intelligence personnel, ground troops, disguised operatives, air assets and additional forces positioned in case the operation escalated.
“You have hundreds to thousands of troops positioned,” she said.
The complexity makes the casualty count all the more striking.
Zamora was the only Israeli soldier killed during the rescue, according to Puder.
Four hostages returned home.
Winn argued that the outcome should be understood in the context of what could have gone wrong.
Hostage-rescue missions involve layers of uncertainty.
The rescuers do not control every variable.
They can plan.
They can gather intelligence.
They can train.
Eventually, someone still has to go through the door.
Zamora’s Actions on October 7 Made His Final Mission Even More Significant
The film also connects Operation Arnon to Zamora’s actions on October 7 itself.
Puder said the Hamas assault began early in the morning, before much of Israel’s military was fully mobilized.
Zamora’s unit did not simply wait.
According to her account, they moved toward one of the communities under attack and helped defend the residents.
Puder described Zamora and a small number of fellow operators as confronting a far larger attacking force while protecting civilians.
Those actions had already made him well known before the hostage rescue eight months later.
That history made the mission’s outcome painfully fitting.
The same man who struggled with the knowledge that Israeli citizens remained captive ultimately helped lead the operation that brought four of them home.
Zamora’s Parents Describe a Son Who Could Not Ignore the Hostages
Puder said one of the most meaningful insights came from Zamora’s father.
After October 7, he said, his son was deeply troubled by the fact that Israeli citizens remained in captivity.
For someone whose professional specialty involved exactly the kind of tactical operations needed to rescue them, simply knowing they were there became emotionally difficult.
Zamora wanted to do something.
When Operation Arnon finally came, it gave him that opportunity.
Puder said his father described a man deeply committed to his work and to correcting what he saw as wrong.
“He was very dedicated to his work and to seeing something wrong made right,” Puder said.
For Winn, that turned the mission into more than a story of professional duty.
It was personal.
The Four Hostages Are Present, but Zamora Is the Center of the Film
Puder said the four rescued hostages were aware of the documentary.
At one point, she expected to interview one of them, but the individual was not well enough on the scheduled day and the interview did not occur.
During pre-production, however, Puder had already begun reconsidering the film’s emphasis.
Most hostage-rescue stories naturally focus on the people brought home.
She wanted this one to focus on the man who did not come home.
The hostages remain central to understanding why the mission mattered, and Puder incorporated material from other interviews they had given.
But the emotional center is Zamora, his fellow soldiers and his parents.
“I wanted to do something a little different with this,” she said.
A 16-Minute Film Built Around Firsthand Accounts
Operation Arnon runs just 16 minutes and 39 seconds.
That compact length was important to Winn, who encouraged listeners to take the time to watch it on the anniversary of October 7.
Puder said the film is being distributed through RealClearPolitics and can also be found through YouTube by searching for Operation Arnon Film.
Despite the short running time, Puder said the documentary includes tactical explanation, firsthand soldier accounts and the deeply personal reflections of Zamora’s parents.
The goal was not to create an exhaustive history of the Gaza war.
It was to tell one story completely enough that viewers could understand the human cost behind a headline.
Palladium Pictures Helped Make the Film Possible
Puder has spent approximately 12 years working in film production and directing.
She had previously worked with Palladium Pictures as an associate producer on several projects.
When the company encouraged her to pitch an idea through its incubator program, she proposed the Zamora film.
The project was approved.
That gave her funding and executive-producer support—two of the biggest obstacles independent documentary filmmakers typically face.
Puder said that support allowed her to move forward with filming in Israel.
For Winn, the decision to greenlight the project also demonstrated that the story had significance beyond one family or one military unit.
Puder Says the Documentary Is Personal Before It Is Political
Anything involving Israel eventually becomes political, Puder acknowledged.
But she does not consider politics the core of the film.
The documentary centers on the people who participated in the operation.
Soldiers explain what happened.
Military experts discuss the strategy.
Zamora’s parents explain who their son was.
“It is a very personal story,” Puder said. “I’d say that’s the real heart and core.”
That approach also reflects how Puder thinks audiences should consume news.
She believes people are surrounded by edited narratives and competing ideological frameworks.
Her answer is curiosity.
“My real message would [be] for people to be more curious,” she said. “If you hear something, look into it.”
The point is not to assume every mainstream account is false.
It is to resist outsourcing judgment entirely.
The Day Israel Celebrated Four Returns and Mourned One Death
Puder described June 8, 2024 as a day of emotional contradictions for Israel.
The country had endured months without a successful military rescue of the hostages.
Then four people came home alive.
At almost the same moment, a soldier who had become a national hero was dead.
The public initially experienced the jubilation of the rescue before the full news of Zamora’s death was widely known.
That created what Puder called a “very mixed emotional day.”
For Zamora’s parents, the contrast was even more painful.
They had desperately wanted Israel’s captives returned.
Their son had helped make that possible.
The price was his life.
Puder suggested his death was inevitably overshadowed to some extent by the national joy surrounding the four rescued hostages.
The renaming of the mission ensured his role would not be forgotten.
Three Soldiers, Two Parents and a Story From Inside the Operation
One reason audiences have responded strongly, Puder said, is the access she received.
She interviewed multiple Israeli service members connected to the mission.
One had trained with Zamora.
Another was a close friend.
That allowed the documentary to move beyond tactical description and capture what Zamora was like personally.
His mother provides another emotional perspective.
Puder said viewers often come away surprised by how close the film gets to the people who experienced the event directly.
Ruthie Zamora’s participation is particularly powerful because she speaks not merely about a famous rescue but about the son she lost.
Puder Would Not Change the Finished Film
Filmmakers almost always see something they would alter after a project is complete.
Puder said this one is different.
After the final edit, custom musical score and color grading were finished, she watched the film and felt it had become exactly what she hoped it would be.
“This is one of the few projects that I’ve made that… I really wouldn’t change anything,” she said.
“It turned out much better than I had imagined.”
That satisfaction comes from the fact that the finished work remained focused on the reason she started.
It honors Zamora without turning him into an abstraction.
It shows the mission without stripping away the people involved.
And it gives his parents and comrades space to speak for themselves.
October 7 Is History That Cannot Be Allowed to Fade
For Winn, the timing of the conversation mattered.
Three years had passed since the Hamas attack.
Twenty-five years had passed since September 11.
As generations move further from traumatic events, memory fades.
Then context disappears.
“If we don’t teach this history, if we don’t teach the lesson or what caused this, we are doomed to repeat it,” Winn said.
Puder’s film offered one way of preserving that memory.
It focuses narrowly on one man and one operation, but that narrowness gives the broader war a human face.
Zamora was not a statistic.
Neither were the hostages he helped rescue.
Puder’s Larger Message: Dig Beneath the Headline
Puder said the process of making the film reinforced a principle that now guides how she looks at almost every major news story.
Do not stop at the first headline.
Do not assume the loudest account is the complete account.
And do not be afraid to investigate a story because the politics surrounding it are uncomfortable.
“I think it’s really important when we hear things on the news and on the media, we dig deeper,” she said.
That is why she traveled to Israel despite having no family, religious or national connection to the country.
She wanted to know what happened.
Then she wanted the people who were there to tell it.
Israel’s War Is Not Isolated From the Rest of the World
Winn and Puder ultimately connected the documentary to the larger international climate.
Puder argued that the conflict Israel faces cannot be viewed as an isolated Middle Eastern problem.
“What people don’t realize is this war that these Israeli people are facing on their home turf—it is really a global war that’s going on around the world,” she said.
She pointed to threats beyond Gaza as evidence that hostile movements do not remain neatly contained inside borders.
Winn drew the same lesson from France at the beginning of the show.
Whether the issue is CCP influence, political instability in Europe, terrorism or the October 7 attack, free societies cannot assume danger somewhere else will remain somewhere else.
The answer, in Winn’s framing, is neither panic nor passivity.
It is vigilance.
The Common Thread: Freedom Requires People Willing to Defend It
The two halves of China Watch Wednesday looked different on the surface.
Ava Chen discussed a weakened Xi Jinping, communist factionalism, artificial intelligence, espionage concerns and authoritarian secrecy.
Hannah Puder told the story of a soldier who entered Gaza to bring hostages home and never returned himself.
But both conversations came back to the same question.
What happens when free people stop recognizing threats until they are already inside the system?
Chen’s warning was political.
Authoritarian power expands when institutions fail to recognize how influence, fear and deception operate.
Puder’s story was personal.
Freedom survives because individual people are sometimes willing to risk everything to protect strangers.
Zamora’s father described a man unable to accept that his fellow citizens remained captive when his own training gave him a chance to help.
That conviction eventually placed him at the front of the force that rescued four hostages.
For Winn, that is the lesson worth carrying forward three years after October 7.
Freedom is not self-sustaining.
Neither is safety.
Both depend on people willing to recognize evil, tell the truth about it and act before somebody else is forced to pay the price.